Audio Codecs and HD and Blu and what have you.

Discussion in 'Movie Lounge' started by Max Yokell, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. Max Yokell

    Max Yokell Well-Known Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Ok now that I am on the verge of picking up a receiver that can handle all the DD stuff and even DTS Master HD or what not that all turns out to mean....

    What HD-DVD players and Blu-Ray players to get that support all these stuff?

    First since it will be HDMI connector with processing by the receiver does that mean all units can just pass all audio formats and the only time a unit needs to support a format is if you are using a 5/7.1 analog out or using the player to convert and pass PCM through the HDMI?

    Or do the units need to support say DTS Master even to pass it through the HDMI connector un-decoded?

    I am thinking of picking up a Panasonic or Sony Blu ray player soon and maybe a PS3 but just unsure of which way to go and I think I might suffer from Knappitiss where you can bring yourself to buy a video game console to really use as an HT component.

    I am also thinking that depending upon which receiver I end up getting I would get the AX 2 for the reon chip on upconverting DVDs if I get the denon or I might just get the middle unit that does 1080P if I get the onkyo.

    So how do I make the right choice and support the most high quality audio formats?

  2. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

  3. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    Currently NO HD or BR player will pass DTS Master HD.

    So that leaves:

    Dolby True HD lossless
    PCM up to 7.1 channels.

    All certified HD DVD players will output Dolby True HD, DD+, DTS and DD. The lone exception is the xbox 360 HD DVD drive which only outputs DTS or DD.

    HD DVD:
    RCA HD DVD: All formats via analog or HDMI - requires 2.0 firmware
    HD A1: all formats via analog or HDMI - requires 2.0 firmware
    HDXA1: All formats via analog or HDMI - requires 2.0 firmware
    HDA2: All formats via HDMI ONLY
    HDA20: All formats via HDMI only
    HDXA2: All formats via HDMI or Analog

    Blu Ray:

    BDP1000: PCM 5.1 thru analog or HDMI. No support for other advanced formats.
    BDP1200: PCM 5.1 thru analog or HDMI. same as above.

    Sony BDPS1: PCM 5.1, Dolby True HD via HDMI or analog outs: Requires 2.0 new firmware for True HD
    Sony BDP300: PCM 5.1, Dolby True HD via HDMI or analog outs. Requires 2.0 firmware.
    PS3: Dolby true HD, PCM 7.1 via HDMI.

    Pioneer BDPHD1: See Sony BDPS1. They are clones of each other. Requires new firmware for True HD
    Pioneer BDP94HD: Dolby True HD or PCM 5.1 thru analog or HDMI.

    BDP10. Dolby True HD, DTS HD, PCm 7.1 via analog or HDMI. Requires new firmware
    BDP10a. Dolby True HD, DTS HD, PCM 7.1 via analog or HDMI. Requires new firmware.

    BDP900: Pretty sure it's PCM 5.1 via analog or HDMI.

    Dual format:
    LG: Not sure on what formats it supports

    The disc needs to allow that to happen and that isn't the case. All current players output PCM via HDMI thus the receiver can't decode the PCM signal into Dolby True HD or DTS HD, or DTS Master Lossless.

    Depends. I have conflicting evidence the new Sony will be able to be upgraded for BDJ1.1 profile. This is the biggest issue right now. If you are worried at all about this, then buy a PS3 and don't look back.

    My opinion:
  4. Max Yokell

    Max Yokell Well-Known Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Hmmm I am a little more confused now.

    Are you saying that With these units the units all do the decoding and then send a PCM signal over HDMI even if the processor supports decoding these formats?

    What formats if any can be passed and decoded by the processor in the receiver by current players? Or does the Dolby True HD get decoded in the receiver and this can be up to 7.1 right?

    Wow this is odd so it seems like the HD-DVD stuff will mostly pass all formats and let the receiver decode.

    I am thinking of the XA2 or the A20 and the Panasonic right now I don't know why I am just shying away from the PS3 and the 5 free movies with the Pany are inviting as I would likely but at least 3 of them and like 4 of them.

  5. Max Yokell

    Max Yokell Well-Known Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Now for another twist do any of these units support multi-channel DVD-A or SACD or even just Stereo SACD?

    I am thinking I might need to keep my JVC around and use the 6 channel out for DVD-A and I really would like SACD ablity as well.
  6. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    Correct. The disc must allow the native signal to be passed to the receiver.
    Zero advanced codecs. Dolby True HD, PCM, DTS HD and DTS MA can do 7.1

    There are several discs which do PCM 7.1 and 1 disc that does DTS 6.1 MA.
    Again no. The discs need to allow it.

    Again Max, the stopping point for me would be the BDJ1.1 profile stuff. AFAIK, BDJ1.1 will allow the advanced decoding in the receiver. I need to double check that.
  7. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    I think the PS3 does SACD. It doesn't have multichannel outputs though. So does it send it over HDMI???
  8. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    The PS3 will support multichannel sacd via HDMI. That's it for SACD.

    The Panasonic does DVD-A but not SACD.

    Also the early gen Sony player won't play CD's.
  9. Max Yokell

    Max Yokell Well-Known Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    The Tosh players don't do DVD-A?

    The PS3 doing SACD is pretty cool, but it doesn't seem to support any type of DTS?

    You are saying there is some sort of flag that allows of disallows the passing of audio in a digital stream?

    There is currently no player that supports actual passing of the bitstream for decoding in Player?

    If this is the case then what was the big advantage of a 1.3 HDMI receiver that supports all these formats? Sounds like at best I will be re-buying players in a year or so no matter what I get but with the PS3 at least Ian will have a video game machine.

  10. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    It'll support DTS core but not DTS HD or MA.
    Correct and correct.
    Its a down the road thing. It's very plausible that firmware updates will fix this issue.
  11. John F

    John F Active Member War Zone Member

    Shane, great post!

    Please excuse the nitpicks...

    My only comment is that maybe you could be a little more careful in your wording. Maybe somehow reword it so that you use something like "passes (the raw bitstream)" and "decodes (via PCM/HDMI or analog)".

    Is this true for both HD-DVD and BD. I believe it is true for the way all current HD-DVDs are mastered, but haven't heard this for BD before.

    I've also heard that it will probably be inpractical (to pass DD+, DTHD, ..)for HD-DVD because of multiple audio streams/mixing/button sounds (I haven't read anything about BD). I haven't heard a good argument why decoding needs to be done by a receiver.

    This wording sounds a little strange to me. Players can either decode and pass PCM (or analog). A player "may" be able to pass the "raw bitstream" and let the reciever do the decoding.

    Also, you mention DTS Master HD, DTSHD, and DTSMA. I looked on the DTS site and didn't see anything about DTSMA.

    In particular, I was looking at:

    I would also be interested in seeing what can be output through the traditional spdif/coax (maybe for each player). My understanding is that for DTSHD (and MA?), a "core" DTS bitstream (of 1.5Mbs) can be output that "all" current receivers should be able to decode. How about for DTS-HD, Dolby True-HD, DD+. I was under the impression that some players can decode Dolby THD and pass it as 1.5Mbps DTS? How about DD+?

    No support for traditional DD or DTS?

    Again Shane, great post!

  12. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    Thanks. this is correct.
    Same problem.
    I've heard BDJ1.1 will allow this but that is speculatory and not fact yet. The reasoning I've heard is the same as you posted(mixing button sounds etc).
    DTS MA is DTS Master Lossless. It's the top picture on that page you linked.

    Right now only Core DTS(DTS 1.5 mpbs), DD and PCM 2.0 can be passed via coax and optical. Everything else is analog or HDMI.
    Depends on the player. If you use coax/optical then the DD+ is extracted as a DD 5.1 core at 640K because DD's max bitrate is 640K.
    I meant advanced codecs. I can correct that.
  13. John F

    John F Active Member War Zone Member

    Well, I was hoping your post would become a sticky, and you could go through for each player and specify what advanced codecs it may extract/re-encode to DTS 1.5Mbs. :)

    Also, you list out every BD player excpet for the PS3. :)

    I may be going BD, but only have one set of 5.1 analog inputs, so the extraction/re-encoding to 1.5Mbs DTS holds some interest for me.


    P.S. On a side note, if a Dolby THD track can be decoded and re-encoded to DTS in real time, that's pretty mind blowing (IMO).
  14. Shane

    Shane Active Member

    It can. I know the Toshiba, the 360, and the PS3 can.

    The 360 will let you choose DTS or DD output.
  15. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    Ditto. Shane, you hve become a fantastic resource.

    I hope CJ has adjusted your salary to reflect this. ;)
  16. Michael

    Michael Junior Geek

    This is what the 360 does. It can output to DD or DTS 1.5Mbps. It even has the option to re-encode to WMA Pro which is supposed to offer some amazing quality.

    I know the HD-A2 can decode the TrueHD stream and output a re-encoded stream, but don't remember if it can do DTS 1.5Mbps.
  17. Michael

    Michael Junior Geek

    It should be noted that ALL HD DVD players can decode TrueHD.

    That is important to note since you will always have an option for getting audio out of a disc even if it does not ship with a DD+ track.
  18. Michael

    Michael Junior Geek

    I am not sure if any existing players can decode and output that stream, but it is in the spec.
  19. Michael

    Michael Junior Geek

    I also believe this is referring to PCM.

  20. John F

    John F Active Member War Zone Member

    Kudos to DTS. They now have two licenseing revenue streams in all HD-DVD players and PS3s, one for decoding and one for encoding. :)

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