1. Create an account to join in the discussion. Once you register don't forget to enter our monthly drawings.

    Register to post on our forum.
  2. Home Theater Lounge will begin holding a live chat every Wednesday evening at 9pm Central. The goal is to get as many members online at the same time and just talk movies, music, and gear. You can join the chat by going to the Shoutbox app.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Dismiss Notice

Woofer coloration

Discussion in 'Hardware Lounge' started by Steve L., Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Steve L.

    Steve L. New Member

    I'd like to discuss something that I have realized as of lately regarding woofer integration to the mid range/wideband or fullrange driver.

    It is really tricky and I am trying to get some notions on what is going on.

    Here's what I have realized, being that there seems to be 2 possibilites.

    1-) Youcan integrate the woofer to sound seamless into the mid range. The effect of this is the coloration of the woofer into the midrange because in order to seamlessly integrate the driver you must use less agressif crossovers and/or a higher cutoff point from the woofer(unless someone can educte me further on this). This way of integrated produces a better coherence :) but tends to color up the midrange making you lose texture.

    2-) A more aggressif cut off and or lower cutoff point will elimate the coloration of the woofer into the midrange but create a very bad sense of coherence. The drivers play on their own.

    What is this effect, and why does it happen. I have been listening to commercial speakers regarding this effect to hear which path they have chosen and I have come to a new appreciateion on some speakers that I was disregarding in the past.
     
  2. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    I like my bass like I like my women, tight and fast :D :D Sorry for the thread crap.
     
  3. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    Steve:

    If you sense that you are adding coloration, then the integration is not seamless.

    Sadly, it's a lose-lose situation. Choose the least offensive poison.

    Larry
     
  4. Steve L.

    Steve L. New Member

    Larry

    IMO overalapping, to the ear, is way more coherent than when the cutoff point creates a hole bewteen the 2 drivers. i.e B&W. Seamless like what the Agathons do from the Lowther to the tweeter. A 6db/octave will cause overalapping and you find that seamless.

    You see my point ? And no, not the one on top of my head.
     
  5. Steve L.

    Steve L. New Member

    Why do you like them fast ? :)
     
  6. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Its synonymous for easy and, because my game is weak... :D
     
  7. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    Steve:

    We could argue about the nomenclautre but actually, I do know what you mean.

    But my comment stands: Choose the option which is least offensive and accept that it will never be perfect. To paraphrase something a speaker designer once said, it is virtually imposible to get two drivers to work together, any more than that is an acoustic nighttmare.
     
  8. Steve L.

    Steve L. New Member

    I knew you knew and now I know that you know what I know, so we both know :)

    Larry, what I'd like to know, is what this phenomenon is ?
     
  9. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    A statement I consider to be gross exaggeration as is often the case in the "upper echelon of hi-fi" I'd wager Larry has heard plenty of 3+ ways that are not "acoustic nightmares and I know I have too. What would I even consider an acoustic nightmare? It would take a lot. Any way, I think statements like this are a disservice to the enthusiast community as they serve no real purpose other than to create conflict. What is the purpose of wording something that way? What is the purpose of saying something drives you from the room? I'm at a loss.

    Full disclosure, I own multi-way speakers.
     
  10. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    There are people here who know much more about than this I do but what I imagine is happening is that when you cross over higher you are asking the woofer to play at higher frequencies at which it starts to distort. Alternatively, perhaps you are hearing the x-over as it enters into a more audible region. Or perhaps both.

    You have very sensitive hearing, which is both a blessing and a curse.

    I have enormous respect for accomplished speaker designers, as it is not an easy task - not by a long shot.
     
  11. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    CJ:

    The person who makes that statement does not make anything other than two-way speakers, and probably never will. He is also very outspoken. I personally do not feel that expessing one's views can ever be a disservice. Undoubtedly far more people ignore his comments than heed them.
     
  12. Saurav

    Saurav Active Member War Zone Member

    Ditto for using a shallower slope on the crossover.
     
  13. Saurav

    Saurav Active Member War Zone Member

    Personally, I think we should all just listen to midrange drivers. Even the so-called full-range drivers introduce too much coloration in the bass and treble. And forget about anything that requires more than one driver. Besides, everyone knows that the music that's worth listening to mostly just has human voices in it.
     
  14. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    But the WAY one expresses them can be. After having owned them I have come to realize what I view as the faults in Paradigm speakers and know that they are incompatible with the way I hear. I don't go around saying that they're a sonic nightmare or that they drive me from the room. Do you not see the difference?
     
  15. cjd

    cjd New Member

    Steve, I believe you are making some assumptions here that are not necessarily good to make.

    Coloration is almost always some kind of distortion (i.e. signal not on the original source).

    The shallower the slope, the more cone introduced issues (whether you're looking at non-pistonic behavior, cone resonances, surround issues, odd transitions of dispersion) you deal with. But you get a more gradual blending of distortions making it less problematic.

    The steeper the slope, the more critical phase integration becomes, but also the more critical you match the distortion profiles of your two drivers. Otherwise, you get a sudden transition from one coloration to another coloration, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

    Are you using measurements and such for your crossover work? If you're not, steeper slopes may be introducing very poor phase integration which will NOT likely sound good - my number one guess is it would muck up any sense of coherence...

    C
     
  16. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    CJ:

    I do indeed see the difference but disagree that such statements have any real impact.
     
  17. Mike B

    Mike B Well-Known Member Donor War Zone Member Top Poster

    C'mon now these kinds of "audiophile experts" have been slinging shit at each other for a good long while now...

    I think it's another reason for the decline of "high end"

    Elitism - I know it all, listen to me, everyone else is a fool.

    You get enough of these guys talking and pretty soon they all get written off.
     
  18. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Eh, see Mike's post above mine.
     
  19. LarryB

    LarryB Active Member

    I think we should just listen to tweeters.
     
  20. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    I'd rather just listen to woofers if I had to choose.
     

Share This Page